Hello and welcome to The Download. I'm your host, Dave Richardson, and this is the David and David podcast. Back by popular demand, David Tron. David, Happy New Year. I haven't seen everybody, so I think we're still okay with Happy New Year if it's the first time we've seen each other. We had David on a couple of times last year. An extremely popular guest, so we wanted to make sure we get him on regularly this year. And believe it or not, he said he will come on. So thanks for that, David.

I'm really happy to be here. I always enjoy talking with you.

David, before we get into what we're going to talk about today—we're going to continue our series that we've been doing, about a dozen of these with different investment managers, looking back at 2025, looking forward to 2026—but tell everyone exactly what you're responsible for and your area of expertise that we're going to touch on today.

I co-manage the US Equity Fund with senior manager Shanthu David. We do that for large cap. We also do that for US mid-cap growth. Those two asset classes we manage at the same time. It's helpful because to understand what's going in the midcap sphere, it takes, we think, a lot of time and effort to understand what's going on in the mega cap sphere because when mega caps sneeze, mid-caps catch a cold, so to speak. There's a lot of interplay between the two asset classes. Those are the two primary uses of my time here.

Excellent. David, if you look back at 2025. I saw you do a presentation, it had to be around last March in Montreal, and your comments were so prescient in terms of what was going to happen through the year and the way you thought the year would play out, particularly with a new president. All of the noise around this presidency, as we're all aware. And again, we will not get political on this podcast. We're not saying we like it or we don't like it. We just recognize that whether you like it or not, there's a lot of noise and lambast around this presidency. But you look straight through it to say, hey, bottom line is, the driver here in terms of the Trump agenda, part of it is making sure stocks do pretty well. You look out at the landscape and it was pretty good. When you look at 2025, obviously, congratulations on being so right. But what are you thinking about when you think of 2025 in the rear-view mirror?

It was a wild year. We started the year at a pretty elevated valuation point, so we knew earnings were going to have to do a heavy lift. We started at a high valuation point because there was a run up post-inauguration. So we just started the year at a high bar. And then Liberation Day hit, and we saw one of the more meaningful drawdowns that we've seen in some time in the stock market in a very short period of time. I should say, for a good reason. The policy path that he laid out for us on that big board that he showed us that one day was extremely punitive to a lot of businesses that rely on supply chains outside of the US. Some businesses, when we were running the math, were effectively uneconomical under that tariff regime. Rightfully so, the stock market introduced a pretty draconian scenario into what could play out. And of course, he then proceeded with the famous TACO pivot, and we were off to the races again. So we started the year very tumultuously. So we had this headwind of tariffs, a more watered-down version of tariffs, and that was almost entirely offset by this amazing tax bill that he introduced in July. In other words, the headwinds of the tariffs were almost entirely replaced by the tailwinds of this tax bill. So in effect, it was a wash. as it relates to risk-assets US businesses. Which is quite an extraordinary thing. And then the market then started to price in a relatively good earnings picture in 2026 by virtue of some of these tailwinds from the tax bill. And most importantly, I think for the stock market these days is the AI trade. And the AI trade just continued to gain enthusiasm as investors started to realize that there may be some durable demand here, and it's unlikely that we'll see an overbuild anytime soon. So it was quite the roller coaster ride in 2025. Oftentimes, when I talk with Shanthu, we just take a step back and we sit here and we go, we have a once-in-a-generation political figure in the form of Donald Trump in office in his second term. His policies tend to be risk-asset friendly. Of course, Liberation Day was not, but he corrected that quite quickly. And then concurrent with that, we have a once-in-a-generation thematic tailwind in the form of artificial intelligence, which appears to be productivity accretive, increasingly so, of which Donald Trump is supportive of because we're in a race against China. So we have these two once-in-a-generation events colliding right now. It's unfortunate that the valuation of the stock market is a little bit elevated. Nonetheless, that is the big picture backdrop which we faced heading into 2026, which is where we stand now.

Yeah. But overall, a very good year. Obviously, people focus more on the large-caps, but when you look more towards mid- and small-cap, where did we finish the year in terms of valuation? How was the relative performance there in that space that you're so familiar with?

So all three—mid, small, and large—did well. Double-digit returns, roughly for all three. Mid underperformed large a little bit. The Mag7, some of them had fantastic years yet again. And then small had a very good end to the year. I would remind the viewers that roughly, I believe, 38 to 40% of small caps tend to be unprofitable. So when the Fed lowers rates, being more dovish, generally speaking, that tends to be supportive of businesses that have cash flows well into the future as opposed to cash flows today. So small caps had a good finish to the year. So we're entering the year at elevated multiples in large cap, less elevated multiples in mid and small. And we particularly are fond of mid-caps right now because we do think they sit in the sweet spot of valuation and earnings growth by virtue of where they sit on their growth life cycle. We're pretty partial to the US mid-caps right now.

David, maybe we should step back before we look forward at the year. I was going to guess that you were going to like mid-caps for this year, just based on the way things are setting up. But why don't you explain to the listeners the difference between small, mid and large cap and what is the sweet spot economically or within the market, interest rate-wise, for each of those areas of the stock market?

Yeah. So I'll start with mid-cap. For mid-cap, the market cap range in the US, I should say—it’s different from Canada—but in the US, it's 5 billion market cap on the low-end, 50-ish billion on the high-end. Anything above that is large cap, and anything below that, we consider small cap. It's important to note that mid and small tend to have more domestic revenue, which is we're finding out in real-time as a good thing as Donald Trump wants to repatriate a lot of manufacturing and whatnot to the US. So they tend to have more demand in the US, more supply in the US. So it's certainly more US friendly from that perspective. Mid tend to be far more profitable than small, perhaps a little bit less profitable than large. But a very important point as it relates to mid-cap relative to large-cap. A lot of large-caps have reached a point where they've eaten their entire market. It's really tough to find incremental growth. And we're finding that, for instance, Meta, Google, Microsoft and Amazon are having to become more capital-intensive businesses to find the next leg of growth. This is not true for mid-caps. Mid-caps still have very long runways for growth because they often operate in a perhaps smaller market than some of the mega-caps, but large nonetheless. Importantly, they still have a significant growth runway within that. Perhaps it's more fragmented. Perhaps they haven't even begun expanding internationally. We really like mid-caps where they are on their growth curve right now for that reason. Domestic revenue, more profitable, and reasonable valuation.

You think about some of these mega-cap companies, they've gotten to the points where they're verbs. I'm going to google something. I got Windows. I got an iPad or iPhone. Okay, so I've captured everything there. What else do I do? You got to start from scratch. Whereas these mid-cap companies are in some of those areas and still have, like you say, plenty of runway. Then is mid-cap another area where lower interest rates are particularly supportive? Lower interest rates are going to be supportive of equities generally, but do you get more lift out of mid-cap with lower rates than you'd get out of large cap stocks?

I wouldn't necessarily say that. It's more pronounced in small, for the reason I laid out, because so many of them are unprofitable. Mid, we're fortunate that they are quite profitable. Many of them are winning businesses and growing industries. They are the market share owner in their industry, and they tend to capture incremental market share. The big get bigger. So I wouldn't say that interest rates are necessarily more of a tailwind, but they’re certainly a tailwind, as you said, though.

Let me try make another economic connection or clarify. We've got pretty decent growth rates coming out of the US right now. We had a good second quarter, a very strong third quarter. Projections right now are for the fourth quarter, despite the government shutdown, to be another strong quarter. You look forward to 2026. Well, the stock market is already telling us that they're expecting 2026 to be a pretty good growth year, along with likely rates falling, but we'll see there. But is high economic growth really important to mid-cap stocks more so than large-cap and small-caps? How do you think about economic growth with respect to the different sizes?

Certainly in the US, because so much of their demand and supply is domestic, US growth matters more to mid-caps than it does large caps. That is just factual. I saw Donald Trump the other day mentioned, there’s no reason the US economy can't grow at 20 to 25% GDP growth. That is not going to happen. But that is the framing of this once-in-a-generation political figure in the US at this point in time as it relates to growth. I think it's an important comment just to understand where his head is at. For that reason, yeah, domestic revenue will benefit from faster domestic growth.

Yeah. As you say, that extra growth—maybe it's not 20 or 25%, but it is starting to look like 4 to 5, or maybe an excess of 5% is possible—that's helpful to that area of the economy because, as you've highlighted, it’s profitable but exposed more to the domestic market than the larger cap stocks. And so it's right in the sweet spot for that area of the market.

That's exactly right. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the K-shaped economy. The higher income households are certainly feeling wealthier than the lower income households right now. I alluded to the tax bill that they enacted last year, the one big, beautiful bill. So fast forward to a month or two from now, late February and March, that is when a lot of the consumer stimulus for the lower end of the K, the lower income households will start to benefit from that consumer stimulus. I should also mention that the middle class will also benefit and the high-income earners will benefit even more. But it will be a tailwind for the consumer for the first half of this year, which is something that the market is certainly looking forward to. And I think there are some stocks that directly benefit from that dynamic, which is starting to get priced into some of these stocks now, but not entirely.

Yeah. So any particular names or sectors that you think really benefit from what you're going to see happen there?

Certainly consumer discretionary, apparel, e-commerce. Payment stocks have had a very rough go relatively recently for a whole bunch of different reasons. But there are certain businesses that certainly will directly benefit from that. Block would be one—the ticker is XYZ—that used to be called Square. You can see a Square terminal at your various retailers and whatnot. They also have something called Cash App, which provides services for the lower end of the K. So these are businesses that are relatively inexpensive on gap earnings that are about to see a tailwind that have self-help levers from a from a margin perspective. So incremental revenue will proportionately flow through earnings. So there are certain dynamics at play here in certain businesses that we haven't necessarily invested in the past, but we're certainly invested now.

You've got a specific mid-cap portfolio. But when you start to look out at a broadly diversified US portfolio, you're going to see that shift you'd expect towards more mid-cap through this year?

I think so. I think the world is waking up to the fact that these mega cap stocks in the US, of which there are 7, 8, 9, maybe 10, that comprise roughly 40% of the S&P 500 from a weight perspective, call it 30-and-change from an earnings perspective, are transitioning to more capital-intensive businesses. And I think the market is also waking up to the fact that, as I mentioned, they have eaten most of their market, so they're probably going to grow at what that market grows at, and in many instances, those end markets are cyclical. So we have been referring to a number of them as capital-intensive cyclicals. Capital-intensive cyclicals do not typically trade at a premium to the market. They trade at a discount. We think the market is waking up to this fact now, and they're going to start looking for more opportunities. And we think mid-cap is what those businesses were 10 to 15 years ago. There are long runways for growth with good margins and good incremental margins and not capital-intensive. So we've been framing mid-caps as exactly what I said, what those mega-caps were 10, 15 years ago.

Because of the growth potential, are they able to get talent the way big companies do? Are they able to attract the people they need for that next level of growth?

They are. And it depends on the job. But it is important to note, a lot of these mid-cap businesses are the dominant business in their profit pool. They don't necessarily compete with the mega caps because they're completely different markets. But when you are the dominant market share owner, you tend to be able to attract the most amount of talent in that particular end market. So, yeah, we've never seen it as a problem. I should also add, we haven't even talked about AI yet, but we do believe AI is going to infiltrate every single business. And the management teams who are most front-footed on that will be able to benefit disproportionately within their own profit pool. It tends to be the market share owners that are growing market share in that market who tend to deploy at first, be most front-footed. We talk with a lot of management teams about this, and it's always the ones that are largely the market share owner who steal market share on a consistent basis.

Don't worry, we're going to get to AI because we want to make sure we do. And again, your last appearance was particularly interesting. And by the way, if you want to listen to David's previous appearances—or all the series we're doing right now, look back at 2025, look forward to 2026—you can subscribe to the podcast anywhere you get your podcasts. As you can see as well, we're also on YouTube, and you can subscribe to us there. Always love a review. We're starting to get some more reviews coming through as I've been asking for them. They're all good, too, David. It's not just my mom now who's giving the review. Oh, your mom was there too. Anyways, David's last appearance we're going to follow up on in just a second. But before we do that, what you were talking about when we were listening to you earlier this year, and it was what you expected to be some tailwinds kicking in through the remainder of the year, that is looking forward through 2026, where, again, you're expecting that higher growth. Looks like it's going to be there along with somewhat lower interest rates. Inflation seems okay. But now, to move even higher, especially at these multiples, you got to look forward to 2027. And, what do you think 2026 looks like in terms of the way it plays out? Will there be enough at the end of the rainbow in 2027 to give us another good market year? Because you just don't generally see markets do as well as they've done for as long as they've done over the last three years.

So we believe that the average stock is going to do quite well in 2026, particularly from an earnings perspective. And the average stock tends to trade at a discount to the aggregate benchmark, the S&P 500, because you have those 10 or so stocks that are so large that trade at a premium. So back to the average stock, this economy, we do believe, will accelerate earnings, and we're starting to see that. And we think that the average stock is going to do pretty well. There are some sectors that had a tougher year last year from a policy perspective. Health care was the obvious culprit for that. But we do believe that the policy backdrop for, say, health care has shifted from existential to manageable. And the multiples of those businesses tended to trade it at relatively depressed levels, and they're starting to recover. And health care is a fairly notable segment of the benchmark, and we've been adding to health care over the past quarter or so. We still are a little mindful that the largest 10 stocks tend to trade at a premium multiple to the average stock, despite their fundamentals starting to look more like those of the average stock. So we are of the view that those businesses should perhaps derate a little bit on average. But absolutely, the average stock is in a very good position right now to do well. What that means at the index level depends on the magnitude of the benefit to the average stock and the headwind for the cap-weighted benchmark. But we're mindful of how directionally those dynamics are going.

Yeah. We've talked about, on previous episodes, if you go back to 2000 to 2002, it's exactly what happened. You had a group of stocks largely concentrated in technology that had run up to ridiculous valuations. We would argue, much more ridiculous than today and not with the earnings power and sustained earning power and growth ability that these companies have demonstrated over now a couple of decades. It was a slightly different position, but those stocks got crushed. The broader market actually did fairly well through that period. We had 9/11 mixed in. There were a lot of other mitigating factors, but generally it did pretty well. It is possible to see those stocks that everyone has loved, have a weaker period, but some other emerging parts of the market and specific companies can still do very well through that period.

Exactly right.

You won't see it in the index. That's the big thing. You might just see the index move flat, and most of the stocks are doing very, very well within that index. But the big ones are struggling. So the index struggles, but you're missing the fact that you can be invested with the right investment manager and be doing well under those circumstances. So David, I know you want to talk about it. The last time you were on, you'd just been out in Silicon Valley, and you were talking about AI with some leaders in the industry, and you'd come away with an impression in terms of where the battle within AI, not at the global level, but at the company level, was sitting at the time. Let me go back and refresh what you'd experienced and heard at that point in time, and then fast forward to today and where we might go in 2026 with the companies that are leading on that front.

Yeah. So that was a very valuable experience for me to speak with oftentimes the CEOs or CFOs of these businesses, to get into their heads as to how this is all shaking out. And what I learned walking away from that was two high-level things. First of which, demand was real and not slowing as it relates to AI spend and the customers of the customers spending on AI. That would be point one. And point two, we learned from some of these businesses that the powerful businesses are scared of these disruptors, xAI, OpenAI, Anthropic, and they're scared that those businesses will potentially steal market share from their core business. By virtue of that, they need to spend on these AI data centers just to fend off these disruptors. In other words, the demand is real and there's some defensive spend going on right now. So I think it should be stated at the onset, though, we are well aware that there is likely a fair bit of redundant spend going on right now. As I mentioned, there's some defensive spend going on and there's some disruptive spend. By virtue of that, by definition, there's going to be some redundant spend there. And then we also know that these businesses are often placing orders, double ordering, triple ordering, quadruple ordering certain ingredients to the AI data center. So we are well aware that there is redundant spend on top of redundant spend right now, and we're mindful of that. But at the same time, we do believe that demand is durable and real, and they're placing these double and triple orders because they believe that also. I think one of the hallmarks of this CapEx investment cycle right now is one of very disciplined supply expansion, capacity expansion, from the key ingredient suppliers to an AI data center. If you think about it, TSMC is a Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing company. NVIDIA designs chips. They don't build chips. TSMC builds them on behalf of NVIDIA. TSMC would build all of NVIDIA's AI data center chips. This is important to note that TSMC, the management team there, has significant battle scars from overbuilding in the past. 2008 and 2009, they overbuilt. 2021 and 2022, they overbuilt. They missed forecast demand, basically. So by virtue of that, they have been extremely reticent to expand capacity. NVIDIA wants them to build more chips. OpenAI wants NVIDIA who wants TSMC to build more chips, but TSMC has refused to do so. They've taken this I've-seen-this-movie-before dynamic, and haven't done so. One of the most important earnings events that's happened recently happened last week, and it was the TSMC earnings. And there was a notable tone change in how they were approaching capacity expansion. They effectively moved from «I've seen this movie before» to, okay, we've talked with the customers of our customers. We've interrogated them. We've seen financial models and projections. The demand is real. We're still cautious, but demand is real, and we're going to expand capacity as they wish. Not immensely, but very measured. And I thought that was extremely notable because one of the more cynical supply chain players who effectively is a bottleneck in this whole trade for an overbuild has decided that it is real. A heuristic we often use on the buy-side as it relates to sell-side ratings—buy, sell, hold—is when an analyst moves from a sell to a hold, it's more meaningful than from a hold to a buy, because most of them are buy ratings anyways. I thought about this TSMC thing as moving from a sell to a hold. They're not wildly bullish or anything like that, but they are measured and they see it and they believe it. I thought that was a very notable demand signal. So I think that was just an important thing to point out. This whole cycle, as you mentioned is not a valuation bubble. We can see that in the data. Many of these valuations are not excessive, particularly as they were in the dot-com bubble. If there's a bubble anywhere, it's a bubble in margins. And there's a bubble in margins because there's a series of key choke point supply chain players who are run by management teams who have been doing it a long time, who have significant battle scars, who refuse to increase capacity. By virtue of that, they are taking price. And when you increase price, you increase margins. And they are increasing capacity in a very measured way. That gives us promise for not an overbuild in the near term because of who is at the helm of the choke points in this trade right now. And the fact that they see the demand as durable, we see the demand as durable for now, I think is a really important demand signal.

I think Canadians will be more familiar with this with, say, the oil market, where all of a sudden you've gone 10 years not investing in building supply. Economic growth forces demand way up. There's none of it around. There's a scarcity. Price goes up. Start drilling, drilling, drilling. Then all of a sudden, the economy slows a little bit. There's tons of oil on the market. The price collapses. And in chips, it's even more extreme. It flood the market with chips. All of a sudden, growth comes off a little bit and the prices just collapse. I often hear in the energy sector, oh, this time, it's a little bit different because they've got their battle scars, as you say, and they understand that if they just pump, pump, pump when the price is high, that it's going to cost them in the long run. At some point, they're going to be tempted and they're going to overbuild.

Potentially. They have some of the most impressive market forecasters at these businesses, and they really take a fine-tooth comb through mitigating any form of that. It is important to note, TSMC is a huge choke point in this whole equation because they're the only company for now, who is really able to build these NVIDIA chips, AMD chips, Broadcom chips. So they are at the wheel of an overbuild right now. And then you have this other segment of the equation, memory, which used to look like the oil sector in terms of it was remarkably fragmented, and it was very easy for one company to expand capacity, step out of line, and then overbuild. And then that's why it was so boom and bust. But that sector has consolidated to a small handful of players right now, and they are not really expanding capacity either. They are very happy to take price. And if you see the price of these memory chips right now, NAND and DRAM, it is up on a flag pole. Another important dynamic here is the buyers of all of this equipment are relatively price insensitive. Coming back to my original point about some of this being defensive spend. When you're worried for your core business, you are probably going to spend more than you otherwise should because it is existential for the business. So you have price insensitive buyers in this whole thing. That being said, I have a voice on each shoulder here. All these bullish points that I'm making, also noting that there is a fair amount of redundant spend taking place, but I think I reconcile relatively bullishly right now because a lot of this artificial intelligence hasn't yet permeated the enterprise yet, the knowledge worker organizations. And I'm extremely bullish on this prospect of agents infiltrating the workforce being utilized much more so than they have been in the past. The example I've been using recently is a hospital procurement department that needs to acquire all sorts of equipment. They acquire MRI machines, but they also acquire garbage cans and garbage bags and gloves and hand sanitizer. And it's often the same department that buys all of those things. There is no reason, I do believe, whereby an agent, an autonomous algorithm who performs a relatively routine task, should not be purchasing certain SKUs for the hospital, whether it be garbage cans and gloves, up to a certain dollar threshold. They would have access to hospital inventory, but it would also have access to supplier SKUs and pricing, and it would do this automatically. And that would free up time for that human to then spend even more time negotiating, perhaps, to buy the MRI machine at a better price for the hospital. And this is just one simple example at a hospital, but you're going to be able to see this at all sorts of organizations whereby these agents will take the helm of relatively routine, mundane, perhaps, tasks, freeing up the human to do the more high value work that is truly impactful for growth of the organization. This is something that is happening in real-time. It's happening at our company on the investment team right now. 2027, I do believe, is when we're going to see the step change of this agentic rollout in knowledge worker organizations, but they're being built this year.

Yeah, so there you go. The market is going to look forward to that and see this coming, as I say, in 2027, which again gives you that opportunity in 2026. Probably by then, you'll be sitting here doing this podcast with Agentic Dave because they'll have me replaced with a bot. But I do think you make a really important point coming off of my somewhat challenge on how that sector looks a little bit like the energy sector or other places where you have boom and bust. But the whole idea of the amalgamation and that it's small and there's these small choke points, one or two companies, versus the energy industry, again, where you gave the example where there's other firms that can step out of line and blow it up for everyone else, it makes it less likely that you see that happen. Then again, with continued better forecasting, better trained leadership, with experience as well, that you're seeing this play out in a way that creates great opportunities from an investment perspective.

Precisely.

Precisely. Oh, there we go.

I do think, though, the center of gravity of this AI trade is shifting from the infrastructure players—NVIDIA, Broadcom, Micron, those types of businesses—and more towards monetization. And monetization can come in a couple of forms. It can come in incremental revenue, but it can also come in incremental margin. So we're increasingly fascinated by businesses who will be able to deploy certain pieces of this technology inside of their businesses to expand margins. Agents would be one of them. But we're also very interested in various aspects of the economy that we will be able to capitalize on this from a revenue perspective. Going back to my argument about agents permeating the workforce, I do believe in some companies, there will be more agents than there will be employees, but these agents will have autonomy. And by virtue of having autonomy, there will have to be significant guardrails, security, governance associated with these. There are a whole host of software companies that will gladly sell enterprises the same solutions that they sell for humans in terms of security and governance, but sell it for those agents also. And it is so early days, and it's very hard for the stock market to see a demand inflection here, which will likely take place next year. But we're excited about owning some of these opportunities that we believe will benefit later this year, early next year.

Yeah. Another example, I started the first podcast of this year talking about the level of knowledge and expertise you have to have in these areas to really understand at the level you need to, to be successful investing in those areas. AI, how it builds out. This whole cycle that you're going to go through, which is multi-years, maybe decades, you've got to have the expertise and background to understand it to be successful because you not only need to catch the stocks that are doing well and are going to be the winners, you need to avoid the ones that are going to be the losers. And there's going to be lots of losers that come out of this as well. This is where that whole idea of professional investment management. I was actually just doing a video this morning with a colleague around the Olympics on the idea of portfolio managers, investment managers like yourself, being like Olympic athletes who just have that focus on what they're doing to the point—and it's quite extreme in many ways—to understand the breadth of what you need to be successful as an investor. Just like someone who's going to ride a luge down the course in the Winter Olympics, how precise they have to be and how they have to spend their whole life almost, and in the preparation coming up to the Olympics, just understanding and knowing exactly where that turn is, exactly what pressure you're going to put, having the strength and power to push the sled fast out of the start, to get onto the sled, not create too much friction or bumpiness, to just create the best speed all the way through the run and win the gold medal. I get the privilege of spending time with a lot of portfolio managers like yourself. It just always impresses me the breadth of the knowledge in so many places. You have to do that to be successful at what you do.

I will mention, we are so fortunate that we work at RBC because if I worked at a smaller asset management, I would not have access to the companies, the people whom I can ask questions to. Asking the right question to the right person at the right time has always kind of been the job. But you need to get access to those people, of which we are lucky to have here because of our scale. And I think it's just such a notable advantage that we have here relative to a smaller asset manager that I just feel fortunate to be able to work here, to be able to maximize the curiosity that I think I have and I’m excited to use.

Yeah, well, I'll maybe finish there. I love having guests like you on because I can even ask the wrong questions and you take us off into an interesting area where I just always learn so much from every interaction with you. I know the listeners enjoy it. Again, we're going to have you on more often this year. We're going to get Shanthu here as well because I know you work so closely with him, and he's got some incredible insights to share, too. But David, thank you very much for joining us today, and we'll see you soon.

Thanks so much, Dave.